Who Killed Senator Bobby Kennedy? (Author & Researcher William Klabber Interview... Part 2)

Senator Bobby Kennedy was brutally gunned down on the very same 1968 evening he secured the front-runner status for being the next President of the United States. As can be heard in the opening clip from Senator Kennedy's son, RFK, Jr, there are many smart, principled people that think the conventional narrative around what happened is a lie.

Interview with William Klabber begins at 9:00 minutes

Much like with his brother JFK's death five years earlier, myriad questions still haunt the events of RFK's assassination, and reasonable doubts as to the conventional explanation continue to swirl over 50 years later. Please join us as we discuss the vast inconsistencies, and possible real answers, as to what occurred that night with the extremely knowledgeable investigator, and host of the MLK Tapes, William Klabber.

Author, researcher, journalist, radio and podcast host William Klabber is one of the world's leading experts on the three earth-shaking 1960's assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr, and Robert F. Kennedy. In this amazing interview, Bill Klabber graciously continues his discussion from episode 27 of the Independent Riot, and explains why the truth behind Senator Robert Kennedy's death is like nothing you've been led to believe. You can also check out Bill Klabber's book on the death of RFK, "Shadowplay," on Amazon.

And check out this full, recent valuetainment interview with RFK, Jr, (from which the opening clip was taken) summarizing his own beliefs about who killed his father and uncle.

If you are intrigued by this interview, we highly encourage you to check out episode  27 of the Independent Riot for our first interview with Bill Klabber about MLK's assassination coverup, as well as episode  28 where hosts Jim and F-Cat diver deeper into the subject matter around all of the 1960's political killings.

If you like independent thinking, and find anything useful about the show, please do remember to leave us a positive review on your podcast player, and share the show with a friend. It definitely helps a lot. Thanks!

Bill's multi-part series on the reality of Dr. Martin Luther King's murder can be found here MLK Tapes.

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Transcript

JD (09:00)
I wanted to segue into RFK because basically what we've painted a picture of is, and again, I encourage everybody to actually listen to the MLK tapes to get into this more, but it's basically a government-backed assassination of MLK is what it looks like with the Dixie Mafia involved. But then...

A few months later, you've got RFK, which is potentially not the same players necessarily, but it looks very similar to the JFK incident of it has something to do with potentially the national security state assassinating RFK. This one doesn't, this seems to me to be.

The MLK thing seems to be more clear cut to me once you get into the evidence. The RFK seems like there are so many questions that don't make sense, that it's hard to determine what the truth is with RFK, but absolutely the official story is not 100% accurate. So would you mind kind of summarizing that and what your take is on it?

WK

First, Jim, you're wrong. Okay. RfK is much easier to understand and much easier to see through. Really? Okay. Yeah, in my opinion. In that the evidence that proves the official story is a bunch of bunk is right in front of everybody. And yes, in the beginning, it looks like there's nothing to discover. Kennedy is shot, they capture the guy with a gun.

He says he did it, he did it alone. It's a prosecutor's dream. And that's all fine until you start looking at the evidence. And the evidence shows, to a virtual certainty, that more than eight bullets were fired in the pantry. Probably 13 bullets were fired. And they were fired from two different directions and from two different spaces. It's very unlikely.

that any bullets from Sir Hansgun ever struck Robert Kennedy. Yeah, OK. And he's four or five, maybe six feet in front of Kennedy, shoots, gets off two shots in his direction. And after the second shot, Uecker grabs his wrist, forces him down onto the steam table, where he continues to pull the trigger and empties his gun.

basically in the same direction, but not towards Kennedy. And in any case, Kennedy is facing him. And meanwhile, Bobby Kennedy is shot four times in the back. And I think there's a fifth bullet that misses him completely. These are all at a fairly steep upward angle, shot from very close powder burn range.

Sirhan is never in powder berm range and he gets two shots off and he's wrestled down. But in the meantime, there's four or five shots from behind Kennedy. Just the sequence, it doesn't fit. You can't have four shots going up there. Even if Sirhan's gun somehow could get to Kennedy and somehow Kennedy is turned around and all that, you still don't get the up and down.

You don't get this sequence. It's rather impossible. So if you can count to 10, you know that something very different is happening. And the problem for the LAPD is that the evidence of the extra bullets is out there for everyone to see. That, you know, you have four bullets in the four bystanders, Weissel, Stroll, Elizabeth Evans.

forgetting the other one. And then you have a bullet in, two bullets in Bobby Kennedy, one bullet that, and I'm just doing the official count of bullets. One bullet that goes through Kennedy and up into the ceiling that gets lost. And that means they only have one bullet for Shrave and that has to be the bullet that goes through Kennedy's suit jacket but doesn't touch his body. And they run a rod up through that suit.

It's almost a vertical shot, although it does lean a little towards the front. Ball straight succeed behind Kennedy and he gets a bullet straight on in the forehead. Wow. Assumably the laws of Newton apply in that pantry that day. Bullets do not take a 90 degree turn. And I mean the whole, and the reason they got the numbers to work anyway, is they said that Sirhan.

shot up into the ceiling, it bounced off the floor and came back and hit Elizabeth Evans in the forehead. And that's physically not possible. So the whole thing breaks down. But besides that, in the direction that Sirhan was shooting, you've got four wounded witnesses, five with Shuri, and then you've got three bullet holes in wood door frames. You see those bullets and those are the bullets from Sirhan's gun.

Now you got three bullets in the ceiling and you've got two bullets in Bobby Kennedy. There's your 13 shots and there's two people firing. And what happens is that a lot of people saw these bullet holes. A lot of them, you know, people who work there said, no, these holes weren't there before. You have a picture of officers Rossi and Wright.

kneeling and looking at a bullet hole in the door frame. And then they do a close-up with a ruler next to it and do a close-up of the hole they're looking at. You can see the base of the bullet in it. And the police officers are supposed to write an in-person report about what they did the night of the assassination, which presumably Rossi and Wright did, only their reports are not in the first person. They're all in the third person.

and they don't mention anything about finding a bullet. Oh, what does that say? It says that they took their original reports and rewrote them for them and just extracted the part where they found the bullet. 10 years later, they were asked, I think by Moldova, you know, did you pull the bullet out of there? No, but we saw it. And how sure were you that it was a bullet? And so, well, it wasn't a nail. I know it wasn't a nail. I've seen bullets before. So they both said,

you know, out of a one to 10 scale, it was a nine that it was an absolute bullet that they were looking at. But meanwhile, the, the police are pretending they never saw the thing. And those locations, the door jam and the ceiling tiles were taken out by the LAPD and then mysteriously destroyed. Yup. Yeah. Yup. So when you're destroying the evidence that you say really wasn't evidence, you know,

if,

those George Ems, they took them down, it was some big mistake, and they could prove that no, those weren't bullet holes, because Dwayne Wolfer, the chief criminalist, said that those were holes that the waiters had punched, bumped into the walls and made those holes because they had a little round thing on the trays. That was his, I swear to God, I mean, it's so Mickey Mouse. And if you bring any amount of intelligence to this at all, you see right through it. Bill Bailey was...

FBI agent on the scene. He got there about a couple hours after Kennedy was killed and he spent the night there. And he said, I saw those bullet holes. I know what a fucking bullet hole looks like. The wood was freshly broken away. I could see the base of the bullet in each hole. I know what a bullet looks like. And he was saying, there's no question there was a conspiracy here. If you can count the bullets, you know two guns are firing. This is an FBI guy.

And there were a lot of witnesses that saw this. And as you say, they took them down. And then, you know, Dan Maldon is in his work for the Regardes Magazine article, which basically said more bullets were fired than Sir Hanford had fired his gun. He talked to a number of Los Angeles Police Department people who were there and who basically said, yeah, no, we took bullets out of there. And one of them said, no, I saw...

Dwayne Wolfer take the bullets out of that wood. And the carpenters that came and took the woods down to take the bullets out and then put the wood back for the time being before it was taken down. So they were all brought into it. They all made statements about what they saw. So there were bullets there and any bullets recovered in the pantry is evidence of a second

gun.

Yeah. And if you, if you can accept the evidence of a second gun, that changes everything. Yep. Everything. Because now the fact that Sirhan can't remember the crime. Yeah. That has, you know, cause normally, you know, you kill somebody, you murder somebody and you say, you don't remember. Well, I'm sorry. You fucking did it too bad. But in this case, if he, you know, he's just a

distraction.

and somebody else is pulling off the real murder, then why is he there? How did he get there? And I read in your notes that you find that the mind control thing a little hard to swallow. Everybody does.

JD

Yeah. But I just actually interviewed the episode is not out yet that interviewed the journalist Stephen Kinzer, who's written a book called The Poisoner in Chief about MKUltra. So I go back and forth on this because absolutely, the CIA was trying to do mind control at this time. So that's beyond question that they were abs, that I guess the only part that I, yeah, I don't know. I'm just, I go back and forth on it.

WK

If, is there a way that the, uh, the surhan as a distraction theory can work without mind control or I love, I love that question. Uh, Jim and, and I'll give you, I'll give you two full days and you can come up with any, you can go in any direction you want and come up with a story and bring it back to me where that would work because I don't think it can. Yeah. Uh, I think.

I think the distractor has to be an involuntary actor. And then with an involuntary actor, it does work. But there's a lot of evidence to suggest that Sirhan was in a trance at that time. Because he has no, he is in however many decades we're at now, he's never had any recollection about the.

the crime and then one of the more intriguing aspects about this which maybe you could give some additional information on is the woman in the polka dot dress who was seen by multiple people I believe with Sirhan at different points. Yeah. Yeah, she was the woman in polka dot dress.

the police would have you believe that there was just this one woman outside on the stair who this woman went by her with another man and they were laughing and we killed them, we shot them and she reported that and then there was also the waiter who was inside the room and saws her hand with this very woman. Yep. And these people were the famous witnesses. There were 30 other.

Witness wow the police yeah 30 yeah and you don't know about them because the police files were kept secret for all those years and Not only that every time they interviewed somebody they would do a summary of the interview and There was a little tricky advice. So you have the real interview then you'd have the summary interview and then you'd have Generation above that would be the police summary report and it'd be amazing

how in the, and this is why you had to go back and listen to the very audio tapes of the real interviews and not just the summary of the interviews because they would just, stuff they didn't like would just disappear. And that happened over and over and over again. And people saw, strong people, Dr. Evan Fried, who was a city councilman at one point, Dr. Medical, Dr. McBroom, George Green.

actually saw this woman and another man come running out of the pantry going, we shot him, we shot him. And the other guy had a gun and a lot of people saw this. And Susan Locke, who was a Kennedy worker, saw this woman with two men and they just looked out of place. And she went over to Carol Brearshears, who was in charge of the Kennedy girls, and said, I don't think they have, they don't have the right stickers on them. And they-

something funny about them. And so Carol Brasher said she would alert security and she went and talked to somebody in the security and then nobody knows if they tried to approach them or what happened after that. But it was obvious enough that the people were saying, who are those guys? So they had people all over the place who saw them. And yet what they brought it down to is, Sandra Serrano said she saw this woman, but her...

her unfortunate story is that she bumped into Sandra Van Oaker and told her story on TV. Because all the other people who saw this woman were just in... Oh, that's right, yeah. So the interviews, we don't care. You said that, you saw that, no one else saw it, and you're buried there for the next 20 years because no one, you can't even tell if the police, what the police are saying you said is accurate.

because nobody's allowed to look at it. So, Sandra Serrano has to be destroyed. And if she is destroyed, you can say, oh, that's crazy story. It was an overwrought political campaigner. She just lost her mind a little bit. And of course, the same, but they didn't, they couldn't destroy Vincent de Piero because they needed him. He was the best witness they had.

He saw Sirhan standing with this woman and then Sirhan approaches Kennedy and starts to shoot. And he says, that's the waiter. That's the waiter. And so they, the idea is they destroy, um, Sandra Serrano and they rehabilitate Vincent de Piero. Um, and it's, it's insane, but, um, and they, they frightened both of them and they get.

Serrano fired from her job and this other guy John Fahey Was fired from his job and they threatening his marriage He had been with the young woman earlier who might have been the girl in the polka dot dress And she said they're gonna come they're gonna get Kennedy tonight and she fit the description. Oh, yeah, that's right earlier in the day Yeah, yeah, and so then with Fahey said oh you weren't you were just out with some girl and you just wanted to go to the beach and get some and

you know, and I'm sorry, we're gonna have to tell your wife this and, you know, he's already lost his job. He's now about to lose his wife. If, you know, or of course you could change your story. We don't have to do any of this. And that's basically what they did. And when you listen, the only thing they did is they gave a phony polygraph tests. They had Sergeant Hank Hernandez, who became a Lieutenant, as soon as he broke Sandra Serrano.

and you'd sit them down and you'd ask them a bunch of questions and you'd say, look, I mean, you're coming out really bad here on this thing. And, you know, we have two, I have two choices here. I mean, I can go out here and hold this paper up and tell everybody you're alive. And really, that isn't the right way to go. That's not what we want to do here. And, well, but I saw those people. No, no, Sandy, don't tell me you saw something you didn't see. Maybe you think you saw them. Anyway.

They work them over, put their phony polygraph tests. Because a lie detector doesn't do anything. And it's certainly, if it's subject to corruption, the operator has total control over everything. And whatever he says he sees, that's the truth. It's bullshit. And it had a day in the 1930s in Chicago when people believed it actually worked, and they were able to flush a few.

confessions out of guys who thought the machine had figured out they had lied. Yeah. Other than that, it doesn't, it detects a certain physiological responses, supposedly connected with what you tell us. Like, but basically you're going to have physiological responses when you're asked a question that might tend to show that you were involved in a crime, even if you weren't, I mean, you know, that's going to make you nervous anyway. It's, it's.

So anyway, but they're giving these people phony polygraph tests and using that to beat them over the head and say, I'm not saying this, the lie detector says this, and we're gonna have to just basically hold you up as a big liar unless you wanna just sort of tell us the truth. So, I mean, that's, but 30 people, 30 people, and it's just fucking amazing how many.

JD

And what was the, so if Sirhan was not the shooter that killed Bobby Kennedy, then it does seem like, is your belief that it was the security guard, Caesar, that was immediately behind Bobby Kennedy? Yeah, that's the best guess for sure.

And there was in perfect position. Yeah. Yes. And there's something else that Zach dug up much to his chagrin, but Zach stumbled across a fabulous piece of evidence at the very end. And I don't know the name of the police officer, but he was out in California and was staying at someone's house and her mother said, you know, I knew a guy who was at the hotel that they maybe want to talk to on the phone and.

Zach called him up and recorded this guy and he said, you know, at the police station, the word just around there is, they just, we just had too many bullets. We didn't know, we had more bullets than we know what to do with. And then he said, the other thing was that the security guard was carrying a 22. He said, what security guard carries a 22? And right out of the blue, 50 years later, this comes down the pike from somebody who was there who tells us these, these

important things. They had more bullets and Sir Han could hold in his gun and the security guard was carrying a 22 and it turns out a 22 that would match the actual kinds of bullet identifications striations. So and Caesar lied about he said he sold the gun before the murder of Kennedy, but then it turned out that he'd sold the gun two months after the murder of Bobby Kennedy. So

There's a lot to say that it was Thane Caesar who was standing behind him. Um, there are other reports of guns drawn in the pantry. I, um, so is it possible that there was somebody else? Yes. But they had somehow have to be behind Kennedy and, and Caesar was. And so what is the overall theory then of

why Bobby Kennedy was killed. It was basically a continuation of the same dynamics from JFK. They just did not want him to get into the presidency. Well, sure, if you're rich enough and powerful enough to murder the president of the United States, you get away with it. Are you going to sit around three years later

and watch his brother ascend to the presidency and take control of all the agencies who then have the power to really look into the crime and find out who was behind it? No way. Yeah. You know, Martin Luther King may have had its own dynamic, but the Bobby Kennedy thing was...

They killed Jack and got away with it and they were not going to risk having Bobby Kennedy ascend to the presidency and have his hands on all the levers of power.

JD

Yeah. Yep. Wow. It, uh, yeah, it's just so, uh, troubling when you, uh, the thing that's most troubling to me is not the actual event. It's the fact that we still live in a society where all of these debates.

are not being had and the evidence is not in the media and the like somehow that's the most troubling part to me. I mean it's very troubling that any of these gentlemen were killed or assassinated but just the fact that 50 years later it's still all of these very valid discrepancies are never addressed in the mainstream like this.

This should be, it seems like, being talked about until it's conclusively determined. So this was a very good book. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to link to that in the show notes, along with the RFK tapes and the MLK tapes. And I guess, yeah, I was going to ask, is there anything as we sort of move into wrapping up? any other points you want to talk about or, uh, things you want to highlight?

WK

Um, well, you know, I was curious about, um, your, your feelings on mind control cause you said this is one area. Yeah. I thought maybe we could explore that a little because you're not alone. I mean, most, most people have these problems, but yeah, I'd like to hear it from you. Yeah. So the.

JD

All right, so I try to train myself to only go as far in believing things as I believe I know the facts for, which I think is a healthy protocol to have. The mind control thing, I've never seen anything that conclusively proves to me it can be done. So that's why I don'tnwant to go there and it's probably because it also, if it's true that Sirhan was successfully mind controlled, it's almost to a point where then you gotta reshuffle your processing on what's possible so much that I don't think I've got the framework to work that. I would readily admit I don't want the mind control thing.
to be real because it confuses so many potential events going outside of that I'm very hesitant to. I want to look for reasons why it's not. Yeah. Like the murder of John Lennon or... Yeah. Alan Lowenstein.

Yeah, the book that Stephen Kinsner wrote called The Poisoner in Chief, which is all about MKUltra, fascinating great book. That obvious, like there's so much evidence that the CIA was actively trying to do mind control. But in that evidence, in the research that Stephen did, he did conclude that they didn't

Achieve it from what he could find but then again you're talking about a clandestine you know Top secret so like if they had would anyone know so yeah You know, I think I think if you start with the physical evidence of the case You know, you don't start with the mind. Yeah, oh you and you build back

from that

WK

And then you have Sirhan, as you say, he's a distractor. And now how does he get there and why? And then you look at the evidence of what happened that night. And when the shooting started, George Plimpton was one of those who jumped on Sirhan and grabbed him. And what Plimpton said immediately after was that he had enormously peaceful eyes.

in the middle of a hurricane of sound and feeling, he seemed peaceful. And then Officer Adair comes running in the room, helps him grab, grabs her hand. And what he said was the guy was real confused. It was like it didn't exactly hit him what he had done. He had a blank glass over look on his face, like he wasn't in complete control of his mind. This is just a cop. Yeah.

describing something unusual. Then you listen to the tapes of Sirhan that night. He's taken down. If his motive was to kill Kennedy because he's gonna send jets to Israel, for example, or why doesn't he go, no jets to Israel? When you listen to the tapes of him, there's no talk about the murder. There's no.

He talks about kids, he talks about the teachings of Jesus, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is a guy who just shot six or seven people he didn't know. He's talking about the stock market, all this stuff. He doesn't, oh, and then when John Howard comes in and starts talking to him, he said, we start the book that way, I think, and he said, do you know where you are?

We're down here and he's asking all these crazy questions, you know, because Howard is looking at him and says, this guy, this guy doesn't seem to know where he is. And then you go to the tapes of Dr. Diamond and Pollock hypnotizing Sirhan in his jail cell and to try to recover a memory of the crime.

and reach for your guns or hand, reach for your gun, put them under and they got it. And he's coming now, you're gonna shoot him now, right? And it seems like they're crossing some sort of line where they're doing a memory implant. But nevertheless, it doesn't really take, because no matter how much they work with him under hypnosis, they bring him out and he just doesn't remember.

And it's very frustrating, but what they do discover is he's extraordinarily easy to hypnotize. It's like, you know, like one person in 20 is as easy to hypnotize as his hand is. He's in that class. And also his total post-hypnotic suggestion. So they run this little experiment where, you know, he's under and they say, well, we're going to bring you out now. But...

A little later, Dr. Diamond's going to take out his handkerchief. You see his handkerchief, you're going to climb the bars of your cell and look out the window and say, it's snowing. They go on and do other stuff. About 20 minutes later, Diamond takes out his handkerchief and blows his nose. Sir Hand climbs the bars of his cell, looks out the window and says, it's snowing. That post-hypnotic suggestion.

the diaries as evidence that it wasn't mind control. And yet you look at those pages, you look at those pages and they're like a crazy man wrote them. It's not like somebody in a normal, I'm going to kill Kennedy because he's a lover. No, it's just the most crazy. I have pictures of it on my wall. It's just, you know, it...

This is not a person in a normal state of mind writing these things. And he has no memory of writing this stuff. Um, so it was apparently done in some session where he was just set go. But at the trial, when they're reading these pages back and asking him, what did you mean by this is I really don't know it because I don't remember writing it. Um, but so when you. All right. I was just going to ask when you spoke with him, does he have, does he think

He was manipulated or does he not know or. Um, it's changed over the years. I mean, he's always assumed it's always assumed that he, he murdered, uh, Kennedy and he just didn't know why. And then slowly over time, there's been the introduction of evidence. This is just that he didn't shoot Kennedy.

He was there and he was part of what was going on, but none of the bullets in his gun struck Robert Kennedy. Robert Kennedy's son, Robert Jr., is one of those who believes that Sirhan did not shoot his father and was not a willful part of that thing. Unfortunately, the other kids are pretty much, he murdered him. Our father used to never be let go. But...

Robert Kennedy Jr. is absolutely on our side on this thing. He's looked at the evidence and talked to Sirhan and said, no, this man didn't shoot my father. So it- And Sirhan did have a recorded like head injury, like from a horse riding accident or something. And isn't there a doctor that, well, I can't remember how, but there-

JD

there could be that he was in the hospital for longer than, uh, normal and, and that kind of stuff does dovetail with the information Steven Kinsner was writing about and the poisoner in chief and that, that doesn't, uh, I mean the CIA was doing that to people. Yeah. Um, and, and he was also looking into mysticism and stuff. So,

You know, Oh, that's right. Rose, uh, cruise, Rosie, crucians. Yeah. Which the woman in the polka dot dress mentioned to the guy that she was getting coffee with. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. There's, there's definitely some strange stuff. Yeah. This is not your normal thing. And I think that's the most important thing to understand. Is it not your normal thing? It didn't happen the way they said it did. And if you or I can't.

fully explain how it all came about? Well, that's too bad, but if we can explain, what we can explain is that this did not happen the way they said it happened, and the police destroyed the most important pieces of evidence, and the police came down on witnesses and made them change their story, forced them to change their story, or they just plain hid the evidence for 20 years where no one could see if

what they saw was the same as what anybody else saw. So everybody was made to feel that they were the only ones that saw this mysterious woman. And, you know, 30 names here, and there's more than that, people that saw this woman with Sir Hen a week or two before at other Kennedy Cavaliers. Wow. Yeah. It's bizarre, and I don't know how to explain it all.

But what I do know is that Sirhan, acting alone, did not murder Robert Kennedy. Yeah. And it was interesting, the security guard angle that with, I believe his name is Caesar, that other investigator, Dan Moldova, I believe, is the name. Moldova. Yeah. Moldova.

Yeah, Moldeo, he thought for a long time that Caesar had done it, correct? But then for some reason he changed his tune on that just based off of one interview and the polygraph or something. But it seems like to me, what struck me was, well, if this guy is a paid CIA assassin, I'm pretty sure he's going to be able to stay calm in one journalist interview.

and pass a polygraph if that's what you're actually talking about. Like, I mean, yeah, it didn't seem like his change of heart really made sense on that. He wrote a book that was somewhat similar to my own about outlining the evidence that showed that the case was not what we've all thought it was and all the malfeasance by the police. But somewhere at the end, he had some sort of change of heart. I think it was when Gerald Posner.

made $3 million on his book, Case Closed, for the Kennedy. And he knew that conspiracy books don't make any money, and they just don't. But people who write books that say, don't worry about anything, those do very well. And so what he did, rather than go back and change everything he said in his book, he put a 25 page addendum onto the book.

where he explains why he's changed all his reasoning. And a lot of that was he went and saw Caesar and he was pretty sure with his interrogation techniques that he'd break Caesar down. Yeah. After 40 years of whatever, well, he couldn't break Caesar down. And so what does that mean? And he gave him a polygraph test, which again, that all depends on the outbreak. That doesn't mean anything. And so now Caesar didn't do it so well.

what must mean that Serhan did it all, and that all those people who saw bullets, well, they were all, you know why they were all? It's a motorcycle cop, Walter Tew. And that is the strangest, the weakest. Oh, a motorcycle cop came in and circled these holes, and they fooled everybody else from there on, so they took the things down, and they pried bullets out of them, and all.

And it was just because of a motorcycle cop was the first guy there and he put his numbers. And that literally makes no logical sense on the A, you would discount a motorcycle cop as if he didn't know what bullets were. He's still a professional police officer. And then why would they take the door jam? If.

It was like, yeah, it doesn't make any logical sense. Just why would they take it? And then why would they burn it? And yeah, yeah. So if it was proof that there wasn't any bullet holes there, you know, yeah, I gotta, I gotta say in the RFK tapes, I did appreciate the kind of back and forth analysis that you and your co-host Zach had on different opinions of it, cause I think that's useful. But

It seemed like he was trying to wrap up the series a little too neatly, if you ask me, and kind of had a bit of a change of heart and put a bow on it to make it all make sense, which was not supported. So I'm glad that you decided to do the MLK tapes on your own, because I think that gives a lot.

the MLK tapes gets a lot more in depth in the controversies and the logical discrepancies than the RFK tapes did. I think the RFK tapes could have been a really great addition, a useful addition to the literature. And I don't know why they, that was not the plan to start out. We were going to debate that. That was a plan that was introduced.

halfway through the show and I wasn't even told about it. And so I resigned from the show and then they said, realized, oh, we still need you for this and we need you for that. And so they lured me back and said, well, we'll give you one episode, episode 14 can be your episode and you can say anything you want. So I just took this one episode and laid the case out as best I could in the time I had. And then agreed to meet Moldova at the great debate.

Um, and, uh, you know, a couple of the things, but, um, it, that, that was not how it was, uh, told to me how it was going to go. Yeah. And I, and I'm not afraid of an argument. I mean, if, if it had been laid out that we're going to be on opposite, you know, seeing things that would have been fine. Um, but that's, that's not how it was laid out. Now it definitely seems like it's got a little bit of shady editing.

towards the end to wrap up very nicely on Zach's side, which like, yeah, so it's good to hear what you think outside of that to give more perspective. Yeah, he was driving up to my house to do the final interview we were gonna, and so he's talking into the thing, and it's like, I'm gonna go see Bill now,

It's like talking to someone who really believes in God and telling them there isn't one. Oh, yeah. But, and, you know, I don't know he said that. So yeah, you know, so I mean, that's anyway, I mean, I've known Zach since he was seven or eight years old. He grew up in the neighborhood. I knew his parents. He approached me to do the podcast.

I, anyway, I was disappointed, let's say. Yeah. And how things went. So, anyway, don't wanna.

JD

The MLK tapes, I'm excited to see how that ends because it is fantastic. And again, so well done for anyone listening to this. This is just kinda.

giving a big overview, you should absolutely listen to the MLK tapes and check out Bill's book, Shadow Play, about the RFK assassination. Have you got any other projects that you're eyeing to do in the future? Because I'm ready to pay attention and hear more, so.

WK

Well, you'll be the first to know, Jim, if I do, but. Excellent.

But this has been a lot of fun and you run a really great interview.